cc: thigpenr@erols.com, thigpenr@starpower.net, Udo.Schneider@dwd.de, teunissen_h@gateway.wmo.ch, david.parker@metoffice.com, Howard.Diamond@noaa.gov, matthew.menne@noaa.gov, AKarpov@wmo.int, m.manton@bom.gov.au, AThomas@wmo.int, MAbayasekara@wmo.int, amrc@ssec.wisc.edu, "Sutherland, Alexander" , "Dr. Bernhard Lettau" date: Thu Oct 14 16:14:27 2004 from: Phil Jones subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: UW-Madison's AWS GSN stations] to: Matthew Lazzara , "kathie.hill" , Thomas C Peterson Matthew, Dick has figured out why the email list doesn't work. His system somehow strips off the full stops (periods) in some email addresses ! So not everyone on this list is getting this email, possibly. I've done my best to make the list correct. Some of the issues you raise Matthew, indicate how poorly at GCOS we have got our message across. The list of GSN stations was determined by a group of 3 following a couple of meetings organized by WMO. There was a GCOS report, a paper in BAMS in 1997 (by Peterson et al) and all the lists were sent to each country (the PR in that country). I would have though that the US PR should have sent the correspondence onto someone at Wisconsin/NSF. I may be naive here, but the UK PR (PR is Permanent Rep. to WMO) sends correspondence relating to the BAS stations in the Antarctic to BAS. Anyway you do know now, and it is possible to make changes to the GSN. It would seem that you should be an additional focal point in the US (for the Antarctic stations and AWSs) and you should make suggestions to the AGG for changes. As for long-term maintenance, the data are being used by ECMWF and NCEP in their analysis products, so they ought to be used for Climate. Some AWSs may be for specific purposes, but for us the main point is the climate and the trends therein. Finally, we chose Byrd because it had an historic manned record up to the early 1970s. Peterson, T.C., Daan, H. and Jones, P.D., 1997: Initial selection of a GCOS surface network. Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society 78, 2145-2152. Dick and I were in India earlier this week a regional GCOS workshop. Not one of the 18 countries of south and southwest Asia, had any idea how the GSN had been selected. They have had correspondence on several occasions about the issue. We had to explain how and that they could make changes/additions. You can see why we want to get to the focal points, as these are the people doing the day-to-day work with the records. Cheers Phil At 20:53 11/10/2004, Matthew Lazzara wrote: Hello! Here is a resend of a note that failed to get to you folks on first try - please read below. As a note, it appears that it never got to "manton@bom.gov.au" and "parker@metoffice.com" and I do not have their proper e-mail addresses. Please send this along to the proper e-mail addresses for them if you feel they should be reading this. Thank you! Best Regards, Matthew -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: UW-Madison's AWS GSN stations Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:40:42 -0500 From: Matthew Lazzara Organization: SSEC To: Richard Thigpen CC: Udo.Schneider@dwd.de, thigpenr@erols.com, teunissen_h@gateway.wmo.ch, parker@metoffice.com, Howard.Diamond@noaa.gov, matthew.menne@noaa.gov, Peterson@noaa.gov, jones@uea.ac.uk, kathy.hill@usap.gov, AKarpov@wmo.int, manton@bom.gov.au, AThomas@wmo.int, MAbayasekara@wmo.int, amrc@ssec.wisc.edu, "Sutherland, Alexander" , "Dr. Bernhard Lettau" References: Dick, and everyone, Hello! During last week's Advisory Group for GCOS (AGG) teleconference, we did talk about these 9 Antarctic Automatic Weather Stations that our group here at the University of Wisconsin-Madison manages (see below) and how these AWS sites have been voted by the Atmospheric Observing Panel for Climate (AOPC) about 4 or 5 years ago to be a part of the GCOS Surface Network (GSN). Dr. Charles Stearns (the Principal Investigator (PI) of the AWS project) and I talked about these stations and the expectations of them by the AGG/AOPC. First, Dr. Stearns and the rest of our group here at the University of Wisconsin were not aware of the elevation to GSN status of these stations. (Of course, this explains some of the recent interest in CLIMAT data or climatology type data from our AWS sites as of late). Now that we do know, this brings up a series of issues and concerns. First, to maintain these sites, there would be a need to perhaps visit the sites yearly, especially as some of the sites suffer from snow accumulation, altering the height of the sensors above the surface. (These comments are noted by George Weidner, co-PI of the AWS project) Unfortunately, we have not been able to service/visit all of these sites over the last several years. Next, the elevation of these stations to GSN status, and the need to perhaps visit them more often would require a commitment from the National Science Foundation and its supporting sub-contractors (RPSC, etc.) to commit to being able to have our group or partners visit these sites yearly - a goal that might not be realistic due to the demands on the US Antarctic Program logistics. Next, some of these stations are maintained jointly with us and by other national Antarctic programs, and in some cases, there are no formal memorandums of agreement or understanding in place that have the level of service or care that might be required for a GSN station. The selection of these stations over others has made us wonder why the following sites listed below were not considered: 89872 Univ. of Wi. ARGOS ID 8929 (Ferrell) 77.884 S 170.818 E 45 Meters 89376 Univ. of Wi. ARGOS ID 8911 (Gill) 79.985 S 178.611 W 55 Meters 89866 Univ. of Wi. ARGOS ID 8906 (Marble Point) 77.439 S 163.754 E 108 Meters These sites have a fairly long record, and Gill represents one of the coldest spots on the Ross Ice Shelf. This leads to the next series of points: some of stations on the list are not operating well at this time (Byrd Station), some sites may not be able to be visited again due to USAP's logistic reach (Mount Siple), some sites have moved (SKI-HI is now SKI-BLU in a nearby location, Larsen Ice has moved inland some to stay inland of the retreating Larsen Ice Shelf C icefront), some sites do move on the Ross Ice Shelf over time (Lettau, Gill, Ferrell), knowing the elevation adequately (Mt. Siple, among others), some do not have a full "suite" of sensors, just the temperature and pressure (Mount Siple, Possession Island). In any case, I wish to make everyone on the AGG/AOPC aware of these issues, etc. In meantime, with regards to generating real-time CLIMAT messages from these stations (and the back collection of CLIMAT messages), Dr. Stearns is going to discuss this further with George Weinder and Linda Keller to determine the feasibility, given the AWS project's current priorities. I hope this information helps! Best Regards, Matthew Richard Thigpen wrote: 89262 UNIV. WI ID 8926 (LARSEN ICE 66 57S 60 55W 17 SHELF) 89266 UNIV. WI ID 8902 (BUTLER ISLAND) 72 13S 60 10W 91 89272 UNIV. WI ID 8917 (SKI-HI) 74 59S 70 46W 1,395 89324 UNIV. WI ID 8903 (BYRD STATION) 80 00S 119 24W 1,530 89327 UNIV. WI ID 8981 (MOUNT SIPLE) 73 12S 127 03W 230 89345 UNIV. WI ID 8900 (SIPLE DOME) 81 39S 148 47W 620 89377 UNIV. WI ID 8908 (LETTAU) 82 31S 174 27W 55 89828 UNIV. WI ID 8989 (DOME C II) 75 07S 123 23E 3,250 89879 UNIV. WI ID 8984 (POSSESSION IS.) 71 54S 171 13E 30 Richard K. Thigpen GCOS Secretariat 301-598-5683 301-452-7669 41 22 730-8012 (in Geneva) thigpenr@erols.com RThigpen@wmo.int -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Matthew Lazzara -Meteorologist- Antarctic Meteorological Research Center 947 Atmospheric, Oceanic and Space Sciences [1]http://amrc.ssec.wisc.edu Space Science and Engineering Center E-mail: mattl@ssec.wisc.edu University of Wisconsin-Madison Phone: (608) 262-0436 1225 West Dayton Street, Madison, WI 53706 Fax: (608) 263-6738 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Matthew Lazzara -Meteorologist- Antarctic Meteorological Research Center 947 Atmospheric, Oceanic and Space Sciences [2]http://amrc.ssec.wisc.edu Space Science and Engineering Center E-mail: mattl@ssec.wisc.edu University of Wisconsin-Madison Phone: (608) 262-0436 1225 West Dayton Street, Madison, WI 53706 Fax: (608) 263-6738 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Prof. Phil Jones Climatic Research Unit Telephone +44 (0) 1603 592090 School of Environmental Sciences Fax +44 (0) 1603 507784 University of East Anglia Norwich Email p.jones@uea.ac.uk NR4 7TJ UK ----------------------------------------------------------------------------