cc: Thorsten Kiefer , vdetemmerman@wmo.int, Heinz Wanner , Anders Moberg date: Tue Jun 14 13:20:10 2005 from: Phil Jones subject: Re: CLIVAR-PAGES workshop questioned to: Christoph Kull , Eystein Jansen , "Michael E. Mann" , Andrew Weaver , Keith Briffa , zhongwei yan Christoph, I have discussed our deliberations last week with Anders Moberg whilst he is here this week. Preparing the key datasets will be crucial to the success of the workshop. Whilst we can produce some standard datasets for each group to run through their approaches this will only work if it is with model data. We will need some carefully produced model datasets that combine the low- and high-frequency components of the chosen model run(s). Standard observational datasets (paleo) will only work for a few of the groups. These will only be able to test methods, not the philosophy behind the approaches. Once the meeting is approved by all concerned, we need to work as group (all the invitees) to develop these datasets. My own view is that the methods themselves will not produce very different results with standard datasets. Whether the low-frequency in the proxy series is real or realistic is the crucial aspect. This might be resolved regionally through additional workshops. The longer European instrumental data will be crucial to testing philosophy for Europe, so the workshop should provide a template for other regions of the world. Cheers Phil At 07:17 14/06/2005, Christoph Kull wrote: Dear all, Sorry for the late reply! I spent my final day of Swiss Army military service yesterday....:-)!! About the planned workshop: We had a short planning meeting last week at the PAGES IPO in Bern. As discussed in Victoria past November, this event will be a joint CLIVAR/PAGES activity following the spirit of the (by the Working Group accepted) scientific agenda, including data, modeling and methodological issues of those past millennia reconstructions, PAGES IPO was charged to take the lead organizing this event together with Mike Mann and Keith Briffa. Last week we discussed in a small group (IPO, Mike Mann, Phil Jones, Heinz Wanner) logistical and scientific aspects of this event. PAGES will provide funding in the order of 10k US$, hopefully CLIVAR will also be able to contribute. Actually, I am preparing a short document - based on the discussion held last week - outlining the ideas for this event. I will be able to circulate this by end of the week. All the best and greetings from Bern, Christoph On 14.06.2005 07:27, "Eystein Jansen" wrote: > Dear Zhongwei and Mike, > Thanks for bringing this up and taking the initiatives. > When we discussed the Pages/clivar plans it was > clear to all in the panel that the workshop was > not merely a workshop on paleo-proxy methodology, > i.e. Pages stuff, but the intention was to bring > the climate modelling aspects closely into the > workshop both in terms of using data and models > innovatively for improving recnstructions and for > data/model intercomparisons. I think there should > be lots of stuff for the dec./cen aspects of > Clivar in what we had in mind, both in terms of > regional aspects and decadal/mulitdecadal modes > of variability, but it is clear that these > objectives need to be made visible in the > workshop document. > > Best regards > Eystein > > > At 13:46 -0400 13-06-05, Michael E. Mann wrote: >> Phil, >> >> Thanks for providing the clarification on this. >> Sorry to all if my original message was unclear. >> >> I expect we'll hear further word from Christoph >> on this shortly. I was just relaying what I took >> from this meeting regarding the specific planned >> workshop on climate of the past one/two >> millennia... >> >> mike >> >> At 11:43 AM 6/13/2005, Phil Jones wrote: >> >>> Dear All, >>> I was at the meeting last week with Mike >>> in Bern. My understanding is that >>> there will be a CLIVAR/PAGES Intersection workshop in 2006 (maybe June). >>> The proposal Mike is talking about is for this meeting - a necessity to >>> gain >>> some CLIVAR support. Christoph is preparing the document/proposal which >>> will have the aims of the meeting and a list of possible invitees. >>> >>> Cheers >>> Phil >>> >>> At 16:20 13/06/2005, Keith Briffa wrote: >>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> can you clarify , from whom this proposal is >>>> coming - do you mean a proposal independent of >>>> the original CLIVAR/PAGES concept/ >>>> Keith >>>> >>>> At 15:18 13/06/2005, zhongwei yan wrote: >>>> >>>>>> Dear Zhongwei, >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for the heads up on this. In fact, >>>>>> several of us (Christoph, Thorsten, Phil >>>>>> Jones, and myself) met in Bern last week to >>>>>> discuss this very topic. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> That's great. >>>>> >>>>>> The issues you raise were indeed a focal >>>>>> point ofİ our discussions, and I think that >>>>>> the initial ideas we came up with regarding >>>>>> the proposed workshop strongly embrace both >>>>>> PAGES and CLIVAR priorities (its our hope to >>>>>> bring together both modelers and data >>>>>> people, and emphasize issues such as >>>>>> regional reconstructions, and processes, >>>>>> that are indeed of particular interest to >>>>>> the CLIVAR community). >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I think it's better to explicitly cite this in the proposal. >>>>> >>>>>> A more detailed, formal draft proposal will, >>>>>> as I understand it, be shortly forthcoming. >>>>>> That would be a good opportunity for us to >>>>>> iterate on these details. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Is Christoph preparing this document? Please >>>>> include Valery in contact, who needs the >>>>> formal proposal to justify WCRP funding on >>>>> this workshop. Cheers. Zhongwei >>>>> >>>>>> thoughts or comments? >>>>>> >>>>>> thanks, >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike >>>>>> >>>>>> At 09:13 AM 6/13/2005, zhongwei yan wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Andrew, Eystein, Keith and Mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> While Christoph already confirmed the PAGES >>>>>>> support for the first workshop (PRMDIP) >>>>>>> organized by the new group, the WCRP side >>>>>>> (currently under financial pressure) posed >>>>>>> questions on funding it. Attached please >>>>>>> find a 1-page justification that I >>>>>>> abstracted from the Vision Document, which >>>>>>> you may need to improve. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A major question is that as a whole the >>>>>>> workshop appears a quite purely PAGES >>>>>>> business. There is not much explicit >>>>>>> expression how CLIVAR-kind of science >>>>>>> (perhaps here this mainly means modeling) >>>>>>> is needed. Do you think there should be >>>>>>> some more explicit expression about >>>>>>> modelling's role in data reconstruction? >>>>>>> and how the workshop is organized to >>>>>>> realize this ? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You may have other views anyway. Please >>>>>>> have a look at the 1-page and let me have >>>>>>> your comments. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Christoph told me that a few members will >>>>>>> gather in Bern this month discussing the >>>>>>> workshop details. When is it, Christoph? >>>>>>> Would it be possible that when you reach >>>>>>> some details, you ring directly to explain >>>>>>> to Valery (Geneva), who is in charge of >>>>>>> WCRP's funding on CLIVAR? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, Zhongwei >>>>>>> >>>>>>> PS: here's Valery's contact details: >>>>>>> Valery Detemmerman >>>>>>> Senior Scientific Officer >>>>>>> World Climate Research Programme >>>>>>> c/o WMO >>>>>>> CP 2300 >>>>>>> 1211 Geneva 2, Switzerland >>>>>>> phone: +41 22 730 8242 >>>>>>> fax: +41 22 730 8036 >>>>>>> email: vdetemmerman@wmo.int >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> *********************************** >>>>>>> Dr. Zhongwei Yan >>>>>>> International CLIVAR Project Office >>>>>>> Southampton Oceanography Centre >>>>>>> European Way, Southampton SO14 3ZH >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Email: zxy@noc.soton.ac.uk >>>>>>> [1]http://www.clivar.org/ >>>>>>> *********************************** >>>>>>> >>>>>> ______________________________________________________________ >>>>>> İİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİ Professor Michael E. Mann >>>>>> İİİİİİİİİİ Department of Environmental Sciences, Clark Hall >>>>>> İİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİ University of Virginia >>>>>> İİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİ Charlottesville, VA 22903 >>>>>> _______________________________________________________________________ >>>>>> e-mail: mann@virginia.eduİİ Phone: (434) 924-7770İİ FAX: (434) 982-2137 >>>>>> İİİİİİİİ [2]http://www.evsc.virginia.edu/faculty/people/mann.shtml >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> *********************************** >>>>> Dr. Zhongwei Yan >>>>> International CLIVAR Project Office >>>>> Southampton Oceanography Centre >>>>> European Way, Southampton SO14 3ZH >>>>> >>>>> Email: zxy@noc.soton.ac.uk >>>>> [3]http://www.clivar.org/ >>>>> *********************************** >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Professor Keith Briffa, >>>> Climatic Research Unit >>>> University of East Anglia >>>> Norwich, NR4 7TJ, U.K. >>>> >>>> Phone: +44-1603-593909 >>>> Fax: +44-1603-507784 >>>> >>>> [4]http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/people/briffa/ >>>> >>> >>> Prof. Phil Jones >>> Climatic Research Unit Telephone +44 (0) 1603 592090 >>> School of Environmental Sciences Fax +44 (0) 1603 507784 >>> University of East Anglia >>> Norwich Email p.jones@uea.ac.uk >>> NR4 7TJ >>> UK >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >> ______________________________________________________________ >> Professor Michael E. Mann >> Department of Environmental Sciences, Clark Hall >> University of Virginia >> Charlottesville, VA 22903 >> _______________________________________________________________________ >> e-mail: mann@virginia.edu Phone: (434) 924-7770 FAX: (434) 982-2137 >> [5]http://www.evsc.virginia.edu/faculty/people/mann.shtml > > > -- > ______________________________________________________________ > Eystein Jansen > Professor/Director > Bjerknes Centre for Climate Research and > Dep. of Earth Science, Univ. of Bergen > Allégaten 55 > N-5007 Bergen > NORWAY > e-mail: eystein.jansen@geo.uib.no > Phone: +47-55-583491 - Home: +47-55-910661 > Fax: +47-55-584330 -- Christoph Kull Science Officer PAGES IPO Sulgeneckstrasse 38 CH-3007 Bern Switzerland phone: +4131 312 31 53/33 fax: +4131 312 31 68 Prof. Phil Jones Climatic Research Unit Telephone +44 (0) 1603 592090 School of Environmental Sciences Fax +44 (0) 1603 507784 University of East Anglia Norwich Email p.jones@uea.ac.uk NR4 7TJ UK ----------------------------------------------------------------------------