cc: "peter.thorne" , "Parker, David" , "Kennedy, John" , "Brohan, Philip" date: Wed, 13 May 2009 13:57:14 +0100 from: Simon Tett subject: Re: Freedom of Information Request to: Phil Jones All, as it is likely that Phil "owns" the dataset can he not request that the MO deletes it... and in fact should you have done so given that the data was for a specific purpose. S Phil Jones wrote: > Simon, > Nice one! Well written Philip! > > I've forwarded one of the earlier emails to our FOI person here. > > Cheers > Phil > > At 12:46 13/05/2009, Simon Tett wrote: >> I've got some of my old met office email -- back to early 2004. We are >> talking about error models then so I think discussions about station >> level records would have taken place in 2003. My recall is that we >> agreed with Phil that the gridded product was jointly owned and that >> he owned the station level records. The web site >> (http://hadobs.metoffice.com/crutem3/data/station_updates/) seems to >> reflect this view. >> >> I think when I left the met office I deleted all my email prior to >> 2004 so can't find a record of the email. It may well be associated >> with the sub-contract to CRU to work on CRUTEM3 which I think was done >> in 2002/2003. >> >> Simon >> >> Phil Jones wrote: >>> Dear All, >>> There are several issues you should be aware of: >>> 1. UEA has denied access to the data to McIntyre (and at least two >>> others in the past) - in 2007. One of the three appealed and that >>> appeal was rejected. >>> We would look stupid if you released the data now. I can put your >>> FOI person >>> in touch with the one at UEA. I think they already know each other! >>> We put up this page at the time >>> http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/landstations/ >>> So they have a list of which stations are used. >>> 2. I have signed agreements with some Met Services (European ones) >>> in the 1990s >>> that I would not pass on their data to third parties. The data could >>> be used in the >>> gridding though and gridded products made available. I never kept a >>> list of which stations >>> these were though, as I never thought such problems would arise. >>> 3. Work on the land station data has been funded by the US Dept of >>> Energy, and I >>> have their agreement that the data needn't be passed on. I got this >>> in 2007. >>> 4. You web site says that anyone requesting the data should apply to >>> me, so tell him >>> that's what they should do. I think you should remove this >>> sentence, by the way. It is >>> this that has opened up the issue again. >>> 5. The data aren't yours to release! Maybe there is no formal IPR >>> agreement, but there >>> is an implicit one. >>> 6. We've altered the version that you have anyway. We're also in the >>> process of doing >>> more of this. >>> 7. You'd need to waste your time combining the two parts of the data >>> and removing >>> the stations that don't get used. >>> Cheers >>> Phil >>> >>> >>> At 11:53 13/05/2009, peter.thorne wrote: >>>> Sorry. I should also have copied Phil in my previous. Apologies for >>>> filling inboxes. >>>> >>>> On Wed, 2009-05-13 at 11:50 +0100, Parker, David wrote: >>>> > Peter >>>> > >>>> > Thanks for responding to this. I have looked in my "Collaboration >>>> with >>>> > CRU" folder but found nothing that specifically addresses IPR of >>>> data. >>>> > >>>> > David >>>> > >>>> > David Parker, Climate Research scientist >>>> > Met Office Hadley Centre FitzRoy Road Exeter Devon EX1 3PB >>>> United >>>> > Kingdom >>>> > Tel: +44 (0)1392 886649 Fax: +44 (0)1392 885681 >>>> > Email: david.parker@metoffice.gov.uk >>>> > Website: www.metoffice.gov.uk >>>> > >>>> > See our guide to climate change at >>>> > http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climatechange/guide/ >>>> > -----Original Message----- >>>> > From: Thorne, Peter (Climate Research) >>>> > Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:43 AM >>>> > To: Kennedy, John >>>> > Cc: Brohan, Philip; Parker, David; Simon Tett; Livingston, Linda >>>> > Subject: RE: Freedom of Information Request >>>> > >>>> > Yes, we do. I guess Linda will know where it is. Simon Tett undertook >>>> > it. cc'ing Simon and Linda here to provide direction to necessary >>>> > paperwork. >>>> > >>>> > On Wed, 2009-05-13 at 10:54 +0100, Kennedy, John wrote: >>>> > > Dear all, >>>> > > >>>> > > The FOI request from Mr McIntyre has arrived. Do we have a formal >>>> > > agreement with Phil Jones that says what we can and can't do >>>> with his >>>> > > data? >>>> > > >>>> > > John >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> ______________________________________________________________________ >>>> > > From: Archer, Marion >>>> > > Sent: 13 May 2009 10:32 >>>> > > To: Carroll, Fiona; Kennedy, John >>>> > > Cc: Mathews, Stuart (Legal) >>>> > > Subject: RE: Freedom of Information Request >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > Hi Fiona/John >>>> > > >>>> > > Thank you for your emails. As Mr McIntyre has raised this request >>>> > > for information and the Met Office hold the information for >>>> whatever >>>> > > reason, we still need to consider releasing it. We will need >>>> to do a >>>> > > public interest test on the pros and cons for release, for which I >>>> > > will need your input. >>>> > > >>>> > > Can you let me know why we are unable to release the information? >>>> > > Was the information given in confidence to the Met Office? Do you >>>> > > have any documentation from Phil Jones regarding this? We need to >>>> > > show we are considering both sides of the argument for release >>>> as Mr >>>> > > McIntyre may go to the Information Commissioner and if we cannot >>>> show >>>> > > a fair and open public interest test has been undertaken, they may >>>> > > find in his favour. >>>> > > >>>> > > If you wish to meet to discuss, please let me know. >>>> > > >>>> > > Regards >>>> > > >>>> > > Marion >>>> > > >>>> > > Marion Archer >>>> > > FOI/Data Protection Manager >>>> > > Met Office Alexandria 1 >>>> > > Fitzroy Road Exeter Devon EX1 3PB United Kingdom >>>> > > Direct Tel: +44(0)1392 884036 Fax 0870 900 5050 >>>> > > email: marion.archer@metoffice.gov.uk >>>> > > http://www.metoffice.gov.uk >>>> > > >>>> > > See our guide to climate change at >>>> > > http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climatechange/guide/ >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> ______________________________________________________________________ >>>> > > From: Carroll, Fiona >>>> > > Sent: 12 May 2009 16:46 >>>> > > To: Archer, Marion >>>> > > Subject: RE: Freedom of Information Request >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > Dear Marion, >>>> > > The customer has already been in touch with John Kennedy who >>>> explained >>>> > > to him that the data set requested does not belong to the Met >>>> Office, >>>> > > and therefore we do not have permission to pass it on. The data >>>> set is >>>> > > held by Phil Jones at the University of East Anglia, and the >>>> customer >>>> > > should make a direct request to him. Below is John's response to >>>> the >>>> > > original request. >>>> > > Fiona >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> ______________________________________________________________________ >>>> > > From: Kennedy, John >>>> > > Sent: 12 May 2009 16:00 >>>> > > To: Carroll, Fiona >>>> > > Subject: RE: Freedom of Information Request >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > Fiona, >>>> > > >>>> > > I wondered when this would arrive. Mr McIntyre, a noted climate >>>> > > sceptic, is documenting all of this on his blog: >>>> > > >>>> > > http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=5962 >>>> > > >>>> > > The "archive of raw land surface temperature observations used to >>>> > > create CRUTEM3" is not ours to give away. The basic archive of >>>> > > observations was put together by Phil Jones at the Climatic >>>> Research >>>> > > Unit at the University of East Anglia. We collaborate with Phil >>>> so he >>>> > > sent us the data with the proviso (as I understand it) that we >>>> should >>>> > > only use it to create the gridded data set CRUTEM3. We are not >>>> to pass >>>> > > it on to other people. It says as much on the web page that Stephen >>>> > > McIntyre refers to. >>>> > > >>>> > > http://hadobs.metoffice.com/indicators/index.html >>>> > > >>>> > > What we can provide are the data that we gather and quality >>>> control on >>>> > > a monthly basis. >>>> > > >>>> > > http://hadobs.metoffice.com/crutem3/data/station_updates/ >>>> > > >>>> > > Stephen McIntyre has already contacted me by email asking for >>>> the data >>>> > > that he is now pursuing with this FOI request. I told him that we >>>> > > couldn't give him the full archive and that he should contact its >>>> > > owner, Phil Jones. I also told him where to find the data he could >>>> > > have. This is what I said: >>>> > > >>>> > > Dear Stephen McIntyre, >>>> > > >>>> > > Thank you for your interest in our datasets. >>>> > > >>>> > > Some of the data is available from the website. Each month we >>>> receive >>>> > > CLIMAT reports at the Met Office, which are quality controlled, and >>>> > > used >>>> > > to update the gridded CRUTEM3 dataset. The quality controlled >>>> CLIMAT >>>> > > station data for recent years can be found here: >>>> > > >>>> > > http://hadobs.metoffice.com/crutem3/data/station_updates/ >>>> > > >>>> > > However, this is not all the station data used in CRUTEM3. Most >>>> of the >>>> > > station data was given to us by Phil Jones under conditions that >>>> don't >>>> > > allow us to redistribute it. If you want the full archive, you will >>>> > > have >>>> > > to contact him. >>>> > > >>>> > > Best regards, >>>> > > >>>> > > John >>>> > > >>>> > > John >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> ______________________________________________________________________ >>>> > > From: Carroll, Fiona >>>> > > Sent: 12 May 2009 15:27 >>>> > > To: Kennedy, John >>>> > > Cc: Archer, Marion >>>> > > Subject: FW: Freedom of Information Request >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > John, >>>> > > Please could you assist marion with this FOI request. >>>> > > Many thanks. >>>> > > Fiona >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> ______________________________________________________________________ >>>> > > From: Marion Archer [mailto:enquiries@metoffice.gov.uk] >>>> > > Sent: 12 May 2009 14:47 >>>> > > To: Carroll, Fiona >>>> > > Subject: FWD: Freedom of Information Request >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > Fiona >>>> > > >>>> > > Please see email below and can you let me know who the best person >>>> > > would be to send it to please. >>>> > > >>>> > > Regards >>>> > > >>>> > > Marion >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > ----------------------- Forwarded Message ----------------------- >>>> > > >>>> > > From: Steve McIntyre >>>> > > To: "" >>>> > > Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 16:27:00 +0100 >>>> > > Subject: Freedom of Information Request >>>> > > >>>> > > Dear Sirs, >>>> > > I request the "archive of raw land surface temperature observations >>>> > > used to create CRUTEM3" as held by the Hadley Center (referred >>>> to on >>>> > > your webpage http://hadobs.metoffice.com/indicators/index.html ) >>>> under >>>> > > the FOI Act or other applicable legislation. >>>> > > >>>> > > Thank you for your attention, Stephen McIntyre >>>> -- >>>> Peter Thorne Climate Research Scientist >>>> Met Office Hadley Centre, FitzRoy Road, Exeter, EX1 3PB >>>> tel. +44 1392 886552 fax +44 1392 885681 >>>> www.metoffice.gov.uk/hadobs >>> Prof. Phil Jones >>> Climatic Research Unit Telephone +44 (0) 1603 592090 >>> School of Environmental Sciences Fax +44 (0) 1603 507784 >>> University of East Anglia >>> Norwich Email p.jones@uea.ac.uk >>> NR4 7TJ >>> UK >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >> >> -- >> Simon Tett >> Chair of Earth System Dynamics >> School of Geosciences >> The University of Edinburgh >> Tel:+44-(0)131-650-5341 >> Fax: +44 (0)131 668 3184 >> email:simon.tett@ed.ac.uk >> Room 351, Grant Institute, >> The King's Buildings, >> West Mains Road, Edinburgh EH9 3JW >> UK >> http://www.geos.ed.ac.uk/people/person.html?indv=1592 >> >> The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in >> Scotland, with registration number SC005336. > > Prof. Phil Jones > Climatic Research Unit Telephone +44 (0) 1603 592090 > School of Environmental Sciences Fax +44 (0) 1603 507784 > University of East Anglia > Norwich Email p.jones@uea.ac.uk > NR4 7TJ > UK > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- Simon Tett Chair of Earth System Dynamics School of Geosciences The University of Edinburgh Tel:+44-(0)131-650-5341 Fax: +44 (0)131 668 3184 email:simon.tett@ed.ac.uk Room 351, Grant Institute, The King's Buildings, West Mains Road, Edinburgh EH9 3JW UK http://www.geos.ed.ac.uk/people/person.html?indv=1592 The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336.