cc: "Tim Osborn" , "Valerie Masson-Delmotte" , "Manuel Hutterli" , , John Birks , juerg.beer@eawag.ch, hufischer@awi-bremerhaven.de, Karin Holmgren , oyvind.paasche@geo.uib.no date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 23:45:55 +0100 from: Eystein Jansen subject: RE: IMPRINT WP1 Task 1.1 latest budget and "workplan" to: Keith Briffa , "Lotter, prof. dr. A.F." , "Ian Snowball" , "Antti Ojala" Hi, as Keith apparently forecasted what I will say, here goes: Going above 3.7mill, I do not have the full overview of the total flexibility i.e. whether there will be flexibility. Yet we can always inflate budgets now, and go above 3.7, but I do not see now where we can cut. Increasing the overall budget is just fooling ourselves as we are quite sure we will be cut if we pass the funding decision. So increasing the budget is just a way of moving problems in front of us. If you think it needs to be larger, we can do this within a few 100k Euros, that´s not a big deal, but we will have to cute down at some point in the future anyway. I do hope, though, that some of the originally planned work will happen in WP6 i.e. some of the syntheses. I think we must be very specific as to what WP1 will do: Improve and extend the best available time series, provide data syntheses, focus only on data that gives quantitative reconstructions of climate physics parameters. I would be hoping that what we get is a much more comprehensive data base than was used in the recent Moberg et al. paper, with decadal resolution and regional spatial coverage. Thus some of the proxies and archivesmay have to be be ditched, and we should stay with only the best and most relevant material. In this respect I agree with Valerie that we need to closely consider the data sets of relevance for modelling. I think some times we might think too much in terms of needing to have specific loclities or archives on board, whereas it is the wuality of the climate reconstruction (quantifieable with decadal resolution) that needs focus. Probably not too much help in this. The bottom line: Lets not argue ove ra few kEuros, add this to 1.2 if needed. Then we can take the discussion later. Look closely at what everybody proopses to do in 1.2. Is all results going to me model relevant? Cheers, Eystein At 12:30 +0000 16-02-05, Keith Briffa wrote: >I do realise the problem with scale and budget >of work in 1.2 Andy , I thought all along that >this area was likely to need more than >proportional support. The real problem is that , >as I also expected, all tasks are way over >budget. I do not believe Valerie or I will >advocate a random cut to specific areas. We are >asking Eystein about the possibility of moving >above the 3.7 million. I feel the Holocene >section is proportionally under funded in the >light of earlier discussions on the importance >of this . The trouble is I know what he will say. > >At 12:02 16/02/2005, Lotter, prof. dr. A.F. wrote: >>Dear Keith and other involved task leaders, >> >>I agree that it makes sense to include the >>Scandinavian varves into task 1.2 as there are >>other varved series from central Europe that >>qualify for this task (e.g. Poland, Germany). I >>don't think sections B4 and B8 need a specific >>adaptation as it is all in there already >>(nevertheless, I shall have another look at it >>and will let you know if I feel that specific >>modifications are needed). >> >>However, I start getting a bit worried that >>everything that needs to get out (for >>scientific or budget reasons?) of whatever task >>in WP 1 ends up in task 1.2. You are well aware >>of the fact that task 1.2 will have to deal >>with the following continental and marine >>proxies: >>- freshwater climate proxies (chironomids, >>Cladocera, diatoms, ostracods, stable oxygen >>isotopes, lake level data) >>- varves >>- marine climate proxies (foraminifera, >>coccoliths, alkenone-derived temperatures >>TEX86, UK37, IRD, etc) >>- ice core data from Greenland and Antarctica >>(stable isotopes, CO2, ions, dust, etc.) >> >> >>To get an idea of what it exactly signifies to >>take on the Scandinavian varves into task 1.2 I >>need from the task leaders the deliverables as >>well as the budgets of the two partners. >> >>As you know the Task 1.2 budget is now >>already > 1 M*; any suggestions which parts we >>can pass on to other task leaders to get the >>budget back to a reasonable figure? >> >>Looking forward to hearing from you. >> >>Cheers, >> >>Andy >> >> >> >>******************************************************************* >>Prof. Dr. Andre F. Lotter >> >>Dept. of Palaeoecology >>Utrecht University >>Laboratory of Palaeobotany and Palynology >>Budapestlaan 4 >>NL-3584 CD Utrecht - The Netherlands >> >>Tel. direct +31 30 2532653 >>Tel. secretary +31 30 2532629 >>Fax +31 30 2535096 >>e-mail a.f.lotter@bio.uu.nl >>WWW http://www.bio.uu.nl/~palaeo/Engels/engels.html >> >>******************************************************************* >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Keith Briffa [mailto:k.briffa@uea.ac.uk] >>Sent: Mittwoch, 16. Februar 2005 10:57 >>To: Ian Snowball; Antti Ojala >>Cc: Tim Osborn; Valerie Masson-Delmotte; Manuel >>Hutterli; Lotter, prof. dr. A.F.; >>carin.andersson@geo.uib.no >>Subject: Re: IMPRINT WP1 Task 1.1 latest budget and "workplan" >> >>Andy and Carin >> >>will you review the messages below. I would like you to include the varve >>work (and Ian and Anttti) completely into task 2 . At this stage we have to >>make these decisions on a practical level , and I am convinced of the case >>to keep the work centralised in task 2 , even though there are overlaps >>with task 1. I realise this requires a reworking of budget . I am happy for >>edited text on The B4 and b8 (not yet complete) sections. >> >> >>At 08:38 16/02/2005, Ian Snowball wrote: >>>Hello All, >>> >>>I agree completely with Antti. It is now up the the WP task leaders to >>>agree which WP task GTK AND LU should be attached to. Do not split us, it >>>would not make any sense to a referee. I would advise 1.2, but of course >>>the more recent data data will contribute to 1.1. >>> >>> >From a scientific point of view, the Finnish varves will provide a more >>> pristine natural signal over the last 500 years than the Swedish sites >>> that are being studied just now. Between 10,000 and 500 cal BP, the sites >>> can be considered pristine (apart from atmospheric pollution from central >>> Europe). >>> >>>Ian. >>> >>>Ian Snowball (Docent/Associate Professor) >>>GeoBiosphere Science Centre >>>Department of Geology - Quaternary Sciences >>>Lund University >>>Sölvegatan 12 >>>SE-223 62 Lund >>>Sweden >>>Tel. +46 (0) 46 222 3952 >>>Fax. +46 (0) 46 222 4830 >>>Mob. +46 (0) 70 676 3915Return-path: >>>Received: from argus3.net.lu.se (argus3.net.lu.se [130.235.132.83]) >>> by cassandra.net.lu.se >>> (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.14 (built Mar 18 2003)) >>> with ESMTP id <0IBZ000WETBBWG@cassandra.net.lu.se> for >>> geol-isn@ims-ms-daemon; >>> Wed, 16 Feb 2005 08:11:36 +0100 (MET) >>>Received: from kusti.gsf.fi (muuri.gsf.fi [193.167.179.2]) >>> by argus3.net.lu.se (8.13.0/8.13.0) with ESMTP id >>> j1G7B4Tc022388 for >>> ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 08:11:04 +0100 (CET) >>>Received: from OTATW24210741.gsf.fi (otadhcpa75.gsf.fi [172.16.0.75]) >>> by kusti.gsf.fi (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA01944; Wed, >>> 16 Feb 2005 09:10:35 +0200 >>>Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:10:03 +0200 >>>From: Antti Ojala >>>Subject: Re: IMPRINT WP1 Task 1.1 latest budget and "workplan" >>>In-reply-to: <12c2d4612c5f0d.12c5f0d12c2d46@net.lu.se> >>>X-Sender: aojala@popper.gtk.fi >>>To: Ian Snowball , Tim Osborn >>>Cc: Keith Briffa , >>> Valerie Masson-Delmotte , >>> Manuel Hutterli >>>Message-id: <6.1.2.0.0.20050216085419.029b4ad0@popper.gtk.fi> >>>MIME-version: 1.0 >>>X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 >>>Content-type: text/html; charsetiso-8859-1= >>>X-Spam-Flag: NO >>>X-MailScanner: Found to be clean >>>X-LDC-MailScanner-VirusCheck: Found to be clean >> >X-LDC-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, >>SpamAssassin (score0.101, required 5, >>> HTML_MESSAGE 0.00, MIME_HTML_ONLY 0.10) >>>X-MailScanner-From: antti.ojala@gsf.fi >>>References: <12c2d4612c5f0d.12c5f0d12c2d46@net.lu.se> >>>Original-recipient: rfc822;geol-isn@cassandra.net.lu.se >>> >>>Hi all, >>>I agree with Ian. >>>This is why I suggested that GTK's work (as well as work by Swedish varve >>>group) should be at least divided between WP1 tasks 1.1. and 1.2., and >>>even included entirely into task 1.2. if one choice should be made. >>> >>>What comes to Swedish and Finnish varve people working closely together >>>and having the same aims (as we are doing in our nationally funded project >>>all the time), is defenately one of our strengths. We can then better >>>exclude local disturbances and peculiarities from our records and have >>>best possible results in terms of regional climate fluctuations. >>>So in IMPRINT we should have the same aims and goals too. >>> >>>antti. >>> >>>At 18:05 15.2.2005, Ian Snowball wrote: >>>Hello all, >>> >>>We'd better answer the following questions before IMPRINT WP1 gets out of >>>control. What is the role of Swedish and Finnish varved lake sediments in >>>WP1? We don't have quantified palaeoclimate data at annual resolution (who >>>does?) I believe that we can prepare qualified decadal to century-scale >>>records of winter precipitation(summer conditions for the last 8000-10000 >>>years, so I thought that fitted WP1 task 1.2 better. The raw data sets >>>either exist, or they will be produced over the next 2-3 years as part of >>>other Nationally funded projects. >>> >>>What do you think Antti? We should be doing coherent work. The varves do >>>not stop at 2000 years and the dating error (%) is certainly no worse over >>>the last 8000 years. The last 2000 years will contain human impact for at >>>least the last 200-300 years in Sweden. You should reply to all. >>> >>>Ian Snowball (Docent/Associate Professor) >>>GeoBiosphere Science Centre >>>Department of Geology - Quaternary Sciences >>>Lund University >>>Sölvegatan 12 >>>SE-223 62 Lund >>>Sweden >>>Tel. +46 (0) 46 222 3952 >>>Fax. +46 (0) 46 222 4830 >>>Mob. +46 (0) 70 676 3915 >>> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: Tim Osborn >>>Date: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 3:38 pm >>>Subject: Re: IMPRINT WP1 Task 1.1 latest budget and "workplan" >>> >>> > At 07:36 10/02/2005, you wrote: >>> > >Hi Tim, >>> > > >>> > >I am not involved in task 1.1, which is correct as far as I'm aware. >>> > > >>> > >Ian. >>> > > >>> > >Ian Snowball (Docent/Associate Professor) >>> > >>> > Dear Ian - quick question: which task are you in then? Antti >>> > Ojala is >>> > (currently) listed in task 1.1 - does this seem odd to split the >>> > varved >>> > lake work between 1.1 and 1.X? Cheers, Tim >>> > >>> > >>> > Dr Timothy J Osborn >>> > Climatic Research Unit >>> > School of Environmental Sciences, University of East Anglia >>> > Norwich NR4 7TJ, UK >>> > >>> > e-mail: t.osborn@uea.ac.uk >>> > phone: +44 1603 592089 >>> > fax: +44 1603 507784 >>> > web: http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/~timo/ >>> > sunclock: http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/~timo/sunclock.htm >>> > >>> > >>> >>>************************************************** >>>Dr. Antti Ojala >>>Senior Scientist >>>Geological Survey of Finland >>>P.O. Box 96 >>>FIN-02150, Espoo >>>Finland >>>tel: +358-(0)20-550 2566 >>>mobile: +358-(0)40-8489796 >>>*************************************************** >> >>-- >>Professor Keith Briffa, >>Climatic Research Unit >>University of East Anglia >>Norwich, NR4 7TJ, U.K. >> >>Phone: +44-1603-593909 >>Fax: +44-1603-507784 >> >>http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/people/briffa/ > >-- >Professor Keith Briffa, >Climatic Research Unit >University of East Anglia >Norwich, NR4 7TJ, U.K. > >Phone: +44-1603-593909 >Fax: +44-1603-507784 > >http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/people/briffa/ -- ______________________________________________________________ Eystein Jansen Professor/Director Bjerknes Centre for Climate Research and Dep. of Earth Science, Univ. of Bergen Allégaten 55 N-5007 Bergen NORWAY e-mail: eystein.jansen@geo.uib.no Phone: +47-55-583491 - Home: +47-55-910661 Fax: +47-55-584330 ----------------------- The Bjerknes Training site offers 3-12 months fellowships to PhD students More info at: www.bjerknes.uib.no/mcts ----------------------------------------------------------------------------